I mean, AIG alone got over $100 billion. Citigroup got $300 billion. And Ford wants $9 billion and everyone goes freaking nuts?
Uh, why does Congress even need to be involved?
I don't remember them debating Citigroup. Or Fannie. Or Freddie. Or AIG. Is it all for show?
So that we can pretend we have checks and balances, or a functioning goverment?
I honestly don't get it.
Automaker aid bill doesn’t have needed votes - Senate Majority Leader Reid says massive bailout plan is in jeopardy
WASHINGTON - Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says the Democrats’ plan to tap the Wall Street rescue fund to save U.S. automakers doesn’t have the votes to pass.
One day after Detroit’s Big Three sent survival plans to Capitol Hill in an urgent plea for $34 billion in government aid, Reid said there’s still not enough support in Congress for using some of the $700 billion bailout to help the teetering carmakers.
He told The Associated Press in an interview, “I just don’t think we have the votes to do that now.”
Posts
87 comments:
The auto industry has the largest union in america, which by it's nature needs to be destroyed.
It's called "Choke on a gnat, and swallow an elephant." A very common concept.
Because the American Public is one more bad-bailout away from taking to the streets with their sharpened pitchforks and looking to overthrow what remains of the smoking, stinking shit pile formerely known as Washington DC.
Bush may have a private Army until 1-20-09 but remember 'We the People"...
Revolution IS in the air.
1-20-09 The END of an Error
It's all show. Our government stopped working right after Reagan took office. Remember, government is the problem and all that?
The problem with the modern Republican Party is, it doesn't BELIEVE in government. Oh, it talks the "small" government game, but it doesn't believe it.
Scratch a modern Republican and they actually want "no" government.
Most rational people call this a failed state.
Failed state equals the Bush Administrations.
Jack Welch says bankruptcy
I agree 100%
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22887506#28051005
The unions need to be destroyed. Then the workers can re-apply for their jobs.
But of course, the monkeys in DC won't let that happen. Since that would be doing the courageous and correct thing.
To much opposition from the Bankers themselves. Economists are also against it.
Remember , the heart beat of capitalism is CREATIVE DESTRUCTION. Toyota , Honda and Nissan have used creative thinking to destroy the big three. They will go bankrupt and from that will emerge a Union free auto manufacturing , either under the current names , or a whole new one. They will then in turn use creative thinking free from the shackles of the UAW to DESTROY the Japanese ones.
The same should have been applied to the BANKS.
And of course, Dodd and his monkeys won't have dissenting viewpoints like Welch testify. He just has the three CEO's in and takes their word for it.
Anyone want to bet on how this ends up?
I'd bet on bailout. Big time.
There is nothing in it for them, obviously.
"Who's gonna buy the cars if everyone's been thrown out of work"
-Michael Moore, December 4, 2008
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22887506#28041502
And no matter what you think of Michael Moore and the monkeys who ran Detroit and America into the ground, that indeed is what this is all about.
Checkmate.
>Because the American Public is one more bad-bailout away from taking to the streets with their sharpened pitchforks...
In Congo they use machetes instead. Maybe we should catch up to the times. They're more intimidating too.
Roubini nails it. Unfortunately though with Dodd running the show, we'll do the EXACT wrong thing.
I hate Chris Dodd. I'm not sure who's caused more damage to America these past two years - Bush or Dodd.
Here's Roubini:
But Roubini is no ally of the auto industry CEOs currently making their case in Congress. He says any government aid must be "highly conditional" and only occur after a prepackaged bankruptcy that includes:
* Replacement of current management
* Concessions from both the UAW and automakers
* A wipeout of existing equity and debt-holders
* Temporary nationalization of the auto industry
http://tinyurl.com/5e87rq
I don't get it, either. Someone didn't scratch someone's back, apparently.
Jersey Girl
"a mean and greedy sob said...
>Because the American Public is one more bad-bailout away from taking to the streets with their sharpened pitchforks...
In Congo they use machetes instead. Maybe we should catch up to the times. They're more intimidating too.
December 4, 2008 6:21 PM"
Agreed. You're RIGHT. I'll buy the next round (as soon as my bailout check arrives at my address down at the UAW Job Bank...)
Heil Bushco! Seig Heil!
The problem is not the unions nor the incompetent management. The real question is whether the US can afford to subsidize an industry producing goods neither their own citizens want nor the rest of the world. Even worse this industry burns valuable fuel and drives up the cost of living for everyone.
Would someone take a gander at this graph and then explain to me why the dollar isn't tanking against anything of value? I really just don't get it.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/bailout-pie.png
1. being fleeced by executives is now an accepted and expected part of american culture - peeps have stopped fighting it and just accept it - but being fleeced by blue-collar union scum is an OUTRAGE...
2. GM execs are stupid - they should point out the trillions in derivative bets on their bonds and state point-blank that a bankruptcy would destroy the entire financial system - that argument gets yuo the red carpet in washington and the gov can't shovel you money fast enough - instead the execs are arguing about all the blue-collar job losses and no one cares since everyone else is losing their job too...
"""
* Replacement of current management
* Concessions from both the UAW and automakers
* A wipeout of existing equity and debt-holders
* Temporary nationalization of the auto industry
"""
And this differs from bankrupty how?
Well other than the nationalization part.
Chapter 7 I say, none of that Chapter 11 crap. The factories and design assets can be sold wholesale to someone else who can build cars and actually be competitive.
The shareholders get 0. The debtholders get close to 0. The workers end up working for the new owners. The union membership goes to 0.
And all is well.
I honestly do not know what the f*ck is going through the heads of this morons in Washington.
Where is this free lunch coming from? Where the f*ck do they get the idea that they can bailout anybody? How can you bail somebody out by robbing Peter to pay Paul or raping the children and grandchildren of America to keep the baby boomers in their f*cking McMansions??!
The USA is truly a nation gone mad. Completely divorced from reality. Divorced from it's foundations : The Constitution, Liberty and Free Markets.
This is all going to end very very badly.
I just don't know when.
Look at what this academic imbecile Bernanke is saying now:
Bernanke Says U.S. Must Step Up Foreclosure Efforts
Somebody arrest this fool now!!!
Because americans can't understand big numbers and have no understanding for the relative amounts in involved.
The problem with the modern Republican Party is, it doesn't BELIEVE in government. Oh, it talks the "small" government game, but it doesn't believe it.
Oh shutup. If you can't see that there is no difference between the two parties and they are both as culpable as the other for destroying America then you are a sad pathetic moron indeed.
Giving money to Central Banks to cover bad debts isn't much of a threat to the money supply, because the banks aren't extending anyone's credit. They are staying tight. Bailouts for the big 3, home owners, or "Main Street" are going to threaten the broader economy quickly.
The "Big 3" are insolvement - no amount of money will save them now.
This train wreck is now picking up steam.
Greed destroys.
Well, to hear CNBC's 4 talking idiots just explain it:
Wall Street's problems were caused by a GLOBAL CREDIT CRISIS. Read: Worthy of bailout. Wall Street as innocent victim of forces beyond their control.
Big 3 failure caused by unions and poor management. Read: Not worthy of bailout.
The strife is because CNBC, GE, congress and the White House are owned and operated by Wall Street.
If the Big 3 must come clean and file bankruptcy, then Citigroup and the rest of the cheats and liars must also come clean. Full disclosure for all.
Like that will ever happen.
Bread and circuses Keith. This is a circus ginned up by Democrats to win a few political points. The UAW and car makers will get their dough, but first Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi must have the asses kissed, and the Republicans in the House must be spanked.
The big 3 clearly didn't make the samelevel of "contributions" to the politicians as the financial folk did.
They also don't have a Paulson equivalent with an unlimited supply of money on their side.
http://pppad.blogspot.com/2008/12/waiting.html
It was written:
"I honestly don't understand this one.. After pissing away $7 trillion on bailouts, why so much strife over a few measly billion for the Big 3?"
Because the "bailout" of the Big 3 is not, directly, related to the current financial crisis. It is true that the financial crisis did compound their problems and may have brought the Big 3 looking for money sooner, but they would have had problems sooner or later anyway.
This "bailout" should be scrutinized closely and watched over like a hawk by regulators and lawmakers alike. They have already let Wall Street get away with murder, don't let it happen with our auto crisis too. Maybe they're just trying to do the right thing here?
Duh, if the banking system goes into the tank, various Federal agencies and government backed insurance programs will have to dole out serious jack to make insured depositers whole (like immediately, well almost immediately - now and not later with real dollars). If a bunch of folk become unemployed for a period of time via an automobile company collapse and are forced to collect benefits, it wouldn't be good but not nearly as unpleasant to the Bank of Uncle Sam in the long run than if say Citigroup collapsed.
IMHO
Smug Bastard
"Roubini: Temporary nationalization of the auto industry."
Roubini seems to think that we're stupid since the big 3 have been nationalized for quite some time. how else can one explain the $50,000 to $100,000 tax incentives to buy SUV's?
the tax break on the prius, though, is $4,000.
IMO, the problem is military spending since, hands down, it distorts the rest of the economy and history has shown us that empires fall because of that.
if the big 3 were central to the functioning of our empire, perhaps they'd be better off but their multiplier effect is falling since they're now importing parts and iron from abroad so their domestic economic coalition is getting weaker.
moreover, I don't think that the big 3 really needs their workers since automation is the better option and how can the politicians explain a bailout that's about losing jobs to automation and more imports?
on top of that, the prices of cars have to come down if the price of labor comes down; so why would the government want to keep auto prices high if they're intent on gutting the economy and renormalizing it due to globalization?
IMO, if the dots are connected, the picture is clear!
The Dems want the hearings for a couple of reasons:
1) they are beholden to the Unions, who grease their pockets everyday with dollars and use their militant tactics to implement "social" policy the Dems dream up in Congress and at the state level,
2) The environmentalists want to extract concessions out of Detroit to make hybrid and more efficient cars.
There's a battle going on in the Dem party right now with this issue between the Union thugs and the eco-terrorists. The Unions want to keep the industry going and the eco-terrorists want it to die.
Reid and Pelosi don't really know what to do; they are caught in the crossfire.
GIVE 'EM the MONEY NOW!!
(in exchange for):::
A long lasting very nice car that gets 40 mpg and costs $12,995.00 and is financed automatically for 2% simple interest. (Credit worthy customers only)--- Warranted fully (totally) for 36 months (100% of everything no exceptions at all).
NO DICKER STICKERS, HONEST DEALERS, Guaranteed Trade in values.
GIVE 'EM THE MONEY in exchange for this.
Slippery slope...where do you draw the line?
What happens when Starbucks wants a bailout?
Besides....IT IS FLAT OUT WRONG to reward failed businesses and allow the same inept leadership (Captain Crunch) to stay at the helm.
In the case of Detroit...it is akin to juicing a dying junkie.
Yup, you were right again. They will try this and if it doesn't work they will go to plan B: that is, to reduce the amount of principle that homedebters owe.
They'll just do the "do over" and say that the $500k house is now worth only $250K, re-write the loan based on that amount, and then forgive the $250k loss so no taxes will have to be paid on it.
And then the Dems will really stick it to the savers and people with integrity by allowing these home debtor bastards to keep any gains from their re-priced house AND to allow those gains to be tax free if they buy another one within a two year period.
The Feds inside the Beltway are gonna screw over the good Americans because DC is just full of anti-American congresspersons and political appointees.
I think frankly, it's a class thing.
The auto industries are workers, unions, (not that I don't think the unions in that particular case, not in all unions, have gone too far).It's not a 'tony' industry. We treat certain elements of our culture like aristocracy and we are going to have to face that one of these days; that and the fact that the poorer are people, full credentialed people. Maybe don't have credit to speak of but that will be taken care of in a jiffy.
Also it is the gnat/elephant thing too.
If we admitted everything, that it's all falling down, that credit is past, and our system was based on that, so our system is done, it just hasn't decayed.
Saw two presidents of companies in last 24 hours. One owned lots of car lots, seemed like a decent guy not withstanding his business; it's all his life's work and it's dying.
Another guy was a copper company ceo. Stock was 150 last year, 18 this morning. They both seemed on the verge of tears. There will be many more, all the way around.
Capitalism as we know it is dead, because it broke, and there is no way to fix it. If you can see how it can be fixed, I'd like to see how. I can't figure out how..
I hope the public doesn't single
out this industry for scapegoating.
I don't even like cars and all the expenses that go with it, but our country will be ruined without gradual fadeout.
grandma pkk
Because Keith, this is the approved non-issue that the little people are supposed to argue loudly about, while the thieves make off the big haul out the back door. Sort of like the whole gay thing, while we sold down the river. Git the peons something they think they understand while you rip them off in ways they could never imagine.
Duh!
It not just the unions destroying the big three, it's management as well. They collaborated to make low quality, dumpy vehicles for the past 25 years.
And yes the US automakers are more deserving of 25$billion. Even though what they make is dangerous, polluting, and destroys street life, at least they make something useful.
It's more then can be said for the banks who made CDO's and interest only ARMS which turned out to be just as dangerous, were made of thin air, and can't be driven anywhere.
How much more warped can things get? What the Fed and the government are doing right now is almost as insane as the entire housing bubble. It's as if they, the Fed and the government, are trying to create a financial bubble to end all bubbles.
The $700 billion or the $7 trillion should not have been set aside or spent on anyone. The Big 3should be left to their own engine. They either fly with it or crash. The show taking place now in Congress is a repeat of the same show we've seen during the $700 billion heist. They ended up rushing back to pass the bill. The same will happen with the Big 3 handout. But Congress is running out of morphine and the sheeple is getting more and more angry.
Bush came up with the $700 billion bailout scam to help out the GOP in the elections-- not the economy. He failed on both ends.
Obama must understand that he was elected thanks to Bush's idiocy. Obama and the Dems seem to be poised to duplicate Bush's mistakes. Bailing out bad businesses doesn't make good business sense.
"Revolution IS in the air."
It would be nice if people got up and protested. However, our numbers would be quickly crushed by any small town police department we traveled through.
Adding up the readers of this blog and the couple hundred or so Ron Paul supporters, leaves about 305 million people in the US who are more concerned about Oprah's gadget of the year or the whereabouts of Natalee Holiday.
Would someone take a gander at this graph and then explain to me why the dollar isn't tanking against anything of value? I really just don't get it.
------------------------------
One more time. it is because the rest of the world is in just as bad of shape as the US if not worse. if you HAD to hold just ONE fiat currency i would recommend the dollar. but I wouldn't recommend holding any currency, you should soon invest in real stuff, like oil (once it bottoms out) gold, property (once it too bottoms out).
Love the quote from the jackass at the UAW that GM might fail this month without a bailout, given that the UAW killed GM.
I hate to see people losing their jobs, but they could have stood up to their leadership and they did not.
The parasite killed the host. And they know it.
The UAW was a force of evil, an economic al qaeda that terrorized America for too long. It should be shut down, run out of town under RICO, declared an illegal organization.
http://tinyurl.com/5ln96n
General Motors May Fail This Month Without Aid, UAW Chief Says
“Chapter 11 reorganization -- even a so-called pre-packaged bankruptcy -- is simply not a viable option,” Gettelfinger said. “The situation at GM, Ford and Chrysler is extremely dire,” the autoworkers’ president said. “It is imperative that the federal government act this month.”
Oh man did the Germans screw Chrisler.
I've been telling you all over and over
Do NOT do business with the Eurotards!
They WILL screw you!
You cannot trust Europeans cause they lie all the time.
Also, people understand the auto industry, so they are pissed. People don't understand the financial industry, so they listen to the talking heads about how dire the situation is.
Your awesome Keith ... spot on concerning this. I watched the hearing on CNN today and the whole time I couldn't stop wondering why the fuck they're getting such a hard time for a few bucks.
I remember in the 80’s when they shut down GM in Los Angeles. The union guys were turning up at machining job shops trying to work, and I thought aerospace guys were worthless. Ha-ha
Burdman
Maybe, just maybe, we're getting somewhere
http://tinyurl.com/6et4ld
Dec. 4 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC executives are considering accepting a pre-arranged bankruptcy as the last-resort price of getting a multibillion-dollar government bailout, said a person familiar with their internal discussions.
Auto executives have warned bankruptcy would lead to liquidation as customers abandoned the companies. Staff for three members of Congress have asked restructuring experts if a pre- arranged bankruptcy -- negotiated with workers, creditors and lenders -- could be used to reorganize the industry without liquidation, a person familiar with that matter said.
“It’s essential for Congress to do due diligence on bankruptcy as an option so it gets a clear sense from independent people what the risks and possibilities are,” said Alan Gover of White & Case, who has been lead lawyer in $60 billion of corporate-debt restructurings.
i've had it said...
B: that is, to reduce the amount of principle that homedebters owe.
They'll just do the "do over" and say that the $500k house is now worth only $250K, re-write the loan based on that amount, and then forgive the $250k loss so no taxes will have to be paid on it.
This Rube Goldberg solution is fixed with the "Own to Rent" program.
1. Bank assumes full title to house
2. Screwed owner becomes renter in said house.
3. Bank negotiates rent at "fair market value".
4. Bank eats loss, Owner becomes renter.
5. Taxpayer off hook for all losses.
6. House remains occupied and unvandalized.
It is so simple, and those that created the problem, eat the problem. We just don't do simple well I guess.
Oil dropped another 7% today on fears that cars with "good" gas mileage may start to be produced in America once GM is exterminated. That should keep demand low.
OPEC Ministers were quoted as saying, "@#$%" in about 10 different languages.
"Anonymous said...
The problem with the modern Republican Party is, it doesn't BELIEVE in government. Oh, it talks the "small" government game, but it doesn't believe it.
Oh shutup. If you can't see that there is no difference between the two parties and they are both as culpable as the other for destroying America then you are a sad pathetic moron indeed."
***********************************Has anyone else noticed that we have a really effin bitter "Anon" showing up lately on this blog. He/She seems to be different from the other anons in their viscerally bitter tone of their attacks on anyone who even dares to knock the GOP/REpublicans/Bush, etc. Who are you? Give yourself a name. Charlie Gasparino?
Probably it's not just a billion. This train wrecked economy will take years to turn around it the auto industry will need a bail out year after year after year.
We don't know what the final tally will be but if you bail-out the auto industry you just add them to the federal budget for the next 5 years.
I agree with an earlier comment, this is done purely for show, the congress was too close to the banks, and they didn't want to dig too deep for fear the facts would show there was no real argument for some of those bailouts.
With the auto industry, there are some debatable, but none the less, very valid reasons for bailing them out, so the Congress is happy to make an example out them. (Yes, this approach does conflict with common sense, but when did that every stop anyone?)
The Japanese building cars here in the US use the same suppliers as the domestic car makers. This begs for the answer why our cars lack quality behind them using the same source.
Simple.... Lavish lifestyles and corporate greed. How many Learjets did GM have ?
Grossly overpaid assembly team and health care provisions that are going to not only collapse them , but the WHOLE USA , too
The Japanese , with nowhere close to this overhead can easily ask the suppliers to build BETTER , STRONGER parts that LAST !!
LET THE BIG THREE EAT CAKE !!!!!
"I hate to see people losing their jobs, but they could have stood up to their leadership and they did not."
Keith, unfortunately, most of the people who will be effected by this, do not even fully comprehend what is happening. They go to work, turn a wrench, come home, sit in front of the TV and crack open a beer. If this was the end of NASCAR, then maybe there would be some uprising by the workers to their unions. These guys have lived off the gravy train so long, they don't even know they are the parasite.....
The union execs are just as corrupt as the bank execs and the car execs and the politicians. And the people that follow these "leaders" have the fatal flaw of complete ignorance. I highly doubt that if we had an educated populous in the US we would have ever had 8 years of Bushco in the first place, let alone the stupidity we see before us.
No educated people would ever have allowed their leaders to fail them this blatantly or openly. Unfortunately, in America currently the stupid and compliant far outnumber the educated and passionate. There is a glimmer of hope in the fact that we elected Obama, but only time will tell if the people actually begin to help themselves or just expect Obama to do it all for them.
"4. Bank eats loss, Owner becomes renter."
Well this is one cornerstone of the crisis. The banks don't own the house, the bond holders do. Banks that try to negotiate with bond holders are getting shot down.
It's to break the unions, Keith. Wow, I read more than you.
Must not have those pesky high wages. That's terrible.
Who killed the elephants? hard to call. UAW? -- had a hand, but can you really fault folks for trying to put a little more jingle in their jeans while the CEOs are out jetting all over the world "earning" more in a week than they will in a lifetime? Getting what you can is the American way, and the CEOs set the standard.
If we force bankruptcy and a big reduction in salary, who is left that can shell out $20K for a car? Michael Moore has that much correct.
Honelsty, it is all so chaotic -- so random now -- that I can't rail against this bailout. Everyone else got a lifeline, and from what I can tell they were undeserving. Why not add another drop in the bucket and see if the big 3 can get their sh*t together?
Ford sucks anyway, let them burn. Every vehicle I ever had from Ford was CRAP!
But save GM and Chrysler, they make good vehicles. Chevy Silverados and Dodge Rams are worth saving.
vanilla ice said...
"4. Bank eats loss, Owner becomes renter."
Well this is one cornerstone of the crisis. The banks don't own the house, the bond holders do. Banks that try to negotiate with bond holders are getting shot down.
Yup, but rumor has it that the gubmint is going to try and force mortgage rates to 4.5%. Won't that create the same problem? The bond holders aren't going to like that either are they?
Actually, in many instances it appears that the same mortgage has been sliced and diced and divided up between multiple bondholders. No one really knows who owns what.
Wouldn't it still be in the bondholders best interest not to see that house become a vandalized shell?
If the gubmint can mandate mortgage rates, they can surely pull off the Own to Rent solution?
Why is the simplest solution always objected to?
but remember the bodies and cracked skulls required to get workers rights............................
Name recognition Keith - name recognition. That's all.
Give Ford the guarantees, that's a no brainer.
Gulp, Give GM some cash.
Let Chrysler die.
This is how I see it unfolding for the American automakers.
That being said, the Wallstreet a-holes get TONS of money for manufacturing debt. Detroit can't can't relative pocket change for making cars. Perhaps the CEO's should play up how much debt they are able to create when people buy cars and then beg for the dinero.
-SRI
PS Do I live in USA?? WTF??
Here's one for you:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/28057605
Countrywide is counter-suing one of it's investors.
did you ever notice the costs associated with part replacement rather than part repair,,, like a 700 buck master cylinder replace verses a 38 dollat seal and gasket replacement....... and 38 bucks for so few bits seemed very high...........
I was going to say "Exactly" but then thought that this is really no more than just another step toward the purposeful destruction of the US. The next step is simply to destroy and shift its productive capacity.
We will all soon be slaves dependent upon others. Does paying 50% of your wages in taxes render one a slave?
how dare you say the democraps and the republithugs are the same?
We Bailed out Wall Street because that is truly our big export. Detroit is just sybolic ... both ways.
DMP
Keith, it's sad that you and so many of your readers have this visceral hatred of unions. Where does that come from?
Have you ever belonged to a union? Have you ever worked at an auto plant, or union construction trade, or anything else where you were represented by workers with power? Have you ever paid union dues? Or are you operating in a fantasy world where you imagine that union goons who look like Mafia guys on The Sopranos are telling you "No, you're not allowed to empty that rubbish bin in the corner. It's not in the contract. You have to let it sit there and stink until someone from the Rubbish Carters Local 313 comes to do it."
I'm a union member. Signed up for the Australian Nursing Federation on the first day of job orientation after I immigrated here. I was also in the nurse's union in San Francisco. If I had had a chance to join a union in other states and in my prior career, I would have leapt at the chance.
The unions would have prevented me from getting fired for stupid shit like giving a urine-soaked nursing home patient a shower against his will. He was demented from Woodie Guthrie's Disease (Huntington's Chorea), stank, and had developed ringworm from poor hygeine. But he beefed to management and I got the sack. Unions would have prevented other companies from doubling my workload overnight without any consultation. (A newspaper that went from once-a-week to twice weekly without adding any staff.) I could go on.
As it stands, bosses have all the power except for not being allowed to keep us as slaves. If we don't like it, we can quit or get fired. Big whoo. Results in sucky products and poor morale.
I'm damn good at what I do, and so are the union nurses around me. The non-union nurses I worked with in Florida were often slack-arse. They were fired from time to time, but life for the nursing home patients they took care of was still horrible, and expensive for their families to pay for. Unions had nothing to do with it.
I don't have union goons telling me what to do. If I want to clean the floor because some confused patient just pissed on it, I do it. If I don't want to be forced to work an extra shift because a nurse failed to show up and I'd rather go home at the end of my shift, I go home. Union rules say I can.
I pay dues of $38 a month. For that, I have a union leadership that battles at the Victorian state government level to make sure hospitals get enough money. I have union reps that make sure I get good pay. I have a counter-balance to the power of management. I'm damn glad for it. I'm sad that so many people aren't.
Has anyone else noticed that we have a really effin bitter "Anon" showing up lately on this blog. He/She seems to be different from the other anons in their viscerally bitter tone of their attacks on anyone who even dares to knock the GOP/REpublicans/Bush, etc. Who are you? Give yourself a name. Charlie Gasparino?
----------------------------------
you idiot. He/She/Me/We are attacking both parties, you dem-coolaide swilling, slave to any catchy 3 word phrase, spouting the latest moveon speaking points liberal lefty.
everyone needs free flowing credit in america & mortgage lending, thus bank rescue. people can continue to buy their cars in japan. america can deal with 500k+ layoffs. thats why.
Everyone needs free flowing credit in america & mortgage lending, thus bank rescue. People can continue to buy Japanese cars. America can deal with 500k+ layoffs. Thats why.
No F*cking bailout, not a cent.
Would someone take a gander at this graph and then explain to me why the dollar isn't tanking against anything of value? I really just don't get it.
Answer: As Europe cuts rate their downturn is accelerating hard, American rates have already been cut drastically, so $USD rallies. Also as funds sell assets in Emerging Markets those funds transfer back into $USD. Many people had big bets in Emerging. This needs to wash thru, likely will take many months. Later on in 09 you will see $USD drop.
Keith, Lets figure out how equities will react to this. If bailout of autos then S&P rally. If they get a sock of coal for X-mas then we drop. We should get an opinion from our readers. $$$$$.
We're going to need a bailout for the Big Oil Companies soon. Have you seen the oil prices? Those poor guys must be in dire straits.
janeZ said:
3. Bank negotiates rent at "fair market value".
4. Bank eats loss, Owner becomes renter.
I just don't see this sort of thing happening because the banks are not in the business of being landlords to renters. Totally different business model from what their real business is, which is providing mortgages so people can buy houses. Banks want nothing to do with collecting rent payments, contracting to maintain properties, deal with all the legal bullshit of being a landlord, etc. etc.
As I said in another post, the Feds have five to ten plans up their sleeves that they will pull out at various stages during this crisis. It is all planned out. The plan is in place. They will trot out their schemes when they feel fit.
My feeling is that eventually they will just do the "do over" and reset the principle. This will solve the problem. It will allow people to 1) keep ownership of their homes, 2) make the payment, and 3) maintain communities.
The only places where this won't work is with houses that were built and bought purely for speculation purposes. No one wanted to live in them in the first place, which means there was never any true demand for them. They are ghost houses.
Yup, down the road, in the not to distant future, the Feds will reset the loans and allow the scumbag homedebters to own McMansions at 50% to 70% off the list price. The American taxpayer will pick up the loss. And the good people, like us HPers, will get a hot iron poker up our bung holes.
Party Over.
Next!
Did anyone see the Glen Beck show--(this episode was supposedly 12/3)??
This post was on the Marketwatch board, and sounds pretty ominous. Seriously, I get more paranoid by the day by what our government and media are NOT telling us of what is to come!!-
Glenn Beck has said it well on his radio show yesterday...
"You cannot inflate the world's money supply to the point that we have. They are lying to you. They are trying to take this down let's look at them in the best possible light.
They are trying to take this system down as slowly as they can so you can prepare, but I'm telling you you are running out of time to prepare. You must prepare your household, you must prepare your children, you must do logical, well thought out things to be able to prepare your family and please do not do them in a panic fashion.
I don't tell you these things to panic you. I tell you this with a sense of urgency so you may move with a sense of urgency and it is the same reason why CitiBank is telling you this today. They say it's either going to be inflation or a downward spiral into Depression, civil disorder and possible wars. They are talking about this on a global scale. They don't say that this is the United States but, gang, there's trouble coming. They are throwing the kitchen sink at this. This is what I told you a year ago."
I think it is because a bailout of these companies would be full admission that America has become some kind of fake/phoney/capitalist/communist society, and the people are still in denial.
Bukko_in_Australia said...
Keith, it's sad that you and so many of your readers have this visceral hatred of unions. Where does that come from? Have you ever belonged to a union?
Bukko - yes, as a matter of fact, I have belonged to a union, required of a summer job when I was in college. And I saw first hand how inefficient, unproductive, corrupt and outdated unions were.
Unions served their purpose one day when workers were exploited. But then the unions became too powerful and corrupt themselves, and exploited their own members, and destroyed the companies that once exploited them.
This is what has happened in the US - I'm not sure what stage unions are around the world. But just look at the demise of the Big 3, and the millions of jobs lost in the US because of unions these past thirty years, and you see our ship of state.
The workers now need to rebel against the unions. What good are union dues when you have no job, and the companies are dead?
The model is broken. Unions are dead. Time to start over.
"why so much strife over a few measly billion for the Big 3?"
Because it conflicts with the ideology of those running things. And putting ideology before national interest is what got us into this mess. I'm not necessarily for bailing out the automakers, but they're certainly more deserving than the banks were.
Also:
UAW pension fund = ~54bn
GM Market cap = 2.51bn
I agree with bankruptcy, but I say require that the unions and retirees purchase the automakers as part of the deal. Turn them into worker-owned enterprises, but broken up into smaller pieces.
Then let them sink or swim, social darwinism style. There's no-one to bargain with, to complain about, or to blame when you're the owners. It both gives you a hand in your own destiny as well as forces you to accept responsibility for your decisions.
Let's not reward the unions, but let's not reward the incompetent management nor the mendacious and short sighted governance/shareholding either.
I agree with bankruptcy, but I say require that the unions and retirees purchase the automakers as part of the deal. Turn them into worker-owned enterprises, but broken up into smaller pieces.
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oh, i like that idea.
and make them so that they are not "to large to fail".
The "to large to fail" is getting very wearisome. To big to fail? well, lets break them up so that one or two failures doesn't bring down the whole house of cards.
@red coats
"You cannot trust Europeans cause they lie all the time."
On what do you base this statement? I worked in Holland for a year and a half and almost felt guilty about how naive they seemed to be about business dishonesty that I took for granted. They didn't realize that most Americans puff up their resume's and you have to ask questions.
I don't think they're necessarily that much more honest than us - because the needs of profit and competition create races to the bottom in such matters. But they exist under much heavier levels of regulation and quite frankly have a much stronger social contract and social fabric. Over there I never saw the kinds of backstabbing and maneuvering I see here.
Maybe my experience was atypical. Or maybe you're talking about the South. I suspect the company I worked for was actually a front for the Indonesian mafia. They kept their word to those of us who worked for them though, and got screwed over pretty royally by a few other Americans they recruited.
I had a higher standard of living over there than I've ever had here. Lower crime, lower stress, more time to enjoy life... My employer recognized my skills and weaknesses and came up with a plan for where they wanted to grow me into over the next ten years. I regret having left.
So put up or shut up. I suspect you have no idea what you're talking about and have been listening to ideologues who believe Europe must be awful because they don't do things the American way. I'm going to suspend judgment though. Surprise me.
JaneZ - "It is so simple, and those that created the problem, eat the problem. We just don't do simple well I guess."
Overall, I like it. Especially because the banks get to eat the loss somewhat gradually over the rental lifetime and that rental income increases over time.
The only problems are:
#1 - being a landlord sucks. It's a marginally profitable business in the best of times. Also it's outside the competency areas of banks. Banks already know through experience that they don't want to manage properties. They'd rather take the hit all up-front and let someone else try to manage the property.
#2 - Given the stupendous misallocation of resources lately, there's going to be a glut of unrented/unrentable units. I remember seeing a statistic somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of mortgages were for investment/second homes. Many of the worst-case properties and markets may not even yield rental incomes.
I think buying up assets might have been an acceptable solution had we waited for the market to crash a lot further. Using stimulus to speed the recovery instead of using it to fail to forestall the problem.
But the leverage situation made that problematic.
Thanks for the answer, Keith, but I still contend unions are necessary. Let me give just one small example from my trade:
I'm a hospital nurse. Patients in hospital are often overweight. They're too sick to move themselves. Nurses have to lift them in and out of bed, roll them over to clean them up when they've shat or pissed themselves, drag them onto trolleys to go down for X-rays or the operating theatre, etc.
In the U.S., we'd do this by brute force. I'm a guy, and fairly strong, so I did a lot of the "Armstrong Method" work. (Lifting people with my own strong arms.) It's hard work, and a lot of nurses wind up with back injuries because of it. When you do your back, you often spend the rest of your life with nagging pain. Makes life sucky.
In the U.S., where there are few unions, the attitude was just "That's too bad, worker. You should have lifted them better. You can suffer through the rest of your career, or you can just quit."
Down here, where there are unions, they put pressure on hospital management to have proper lifting devices. We have machines like little cranes that roll along the floor, which we can use to hoist patients from their beds into chairs. All the ceilings have steel tracks which we can attach a lifting device to which hooks to a sling that we put under the patient. Raises 'em with ease, and saves our backs. We also drop fewer patients on the floor that way!
All this equipment costs money that the hospital has to pay. It wouldn't have happened without union pressure. (It also helps that Oz has socialised medicine, so any health care costs us nurses incur ultimately fall back on society, but that's another topic.)
I'm not saying unions are perfect. there has to be pushback from both sides to keep the other in check. But unions are the only thing that us workers have to fight back against the bosses. People who blindly attack unions are supporting the upper caste, the rich bastards who have driven the world into a ditch. As anti-ruling elite as you are, I find it odd that you favour the power structure.
Not difficult: 2-3 million unemployed, homeless workers = civil unrest = Good Excuse for martial law.
Have you ever belonged to a union? Have you ever worked at an auto plant, or union construction trade, or anything else where you were represented by workers with power? Have you ever paid union dues? Or are you operating in a fantasy world where you imagine that union goons who look like Mafia guys on The Sopranos are telling you "No, you're not allowed to empty that rubbish bin in the corner. It's not in the contract. You have to let it sit there and stink until someone from the Rubbish Carters Local 313 comes to do it."
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Have you ever been given then bill for a 4 hour minimum at overtime rates for a union electrician to flip a light switch, because they are the only ones allowed to do it?
Have you ever had an important project which you needed completed quickly so you go do the work yourself, only to have a union worker come along and rip it out since you didn't pay them to do it?
Have you ever seen incompetent people working at an hourly job they take 5x longer to complete than they should, but they can't be fired because of their union contracts?
I have. At the end of the day, when you remove competition and the need/desire to do a good job, you breed corruption, greed, and laziness.
The model is broken. Unions are dead. Time to start over.
Some day, you will realize that is why we are so fucked. We need strong unions in this country, and a regard for workers' rights. That is where we are going to start rebuilding prosperity, and the middle class. They don't have unions in China and Mexico. We would not have a middle class, if it were no for the unions. The auto makers of Germany, Japan and Korea deal with unions, and do just fine.
If you want to see corruption, greed and laziness of staggering proportions -- just look in the executive suite and the boardroom. Don't attack people on the bottom who are working for a living. They don't make any decisions.
Strong unions? You mean unlike the corrupt and evil ones we currently have?
Workers shouldn't be exploited, but workers also shouldn't exploit their company
Maybe the model should be workers own a share of all companies - at least 10%. And all bonuses are paid in shares, but that are spread over 10 years.
Something went wrong with the model. Bankers took down their companies to make a 1-year bonus - they didn't care about if the bank could survive.
And auto workers who demanded too much money took down GM/Ford/Chrysler. They're to blame. Period.
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