April 17, 2009

Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.

57 comments:

10th Amend. or die said...

"...and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority,..."

ALL KNEAL BEFORE ZOD!

wow, talk about inclusive... i think my grandmother now qualifies as a right-wing extremist, i.e. domestic terrorist, under this communique. i know i sure as hell do.

Keith- so do you consider this a step backwards? b/c it is.

Matt C said...

The extremists are the ones making off with 12 Trillion and counting. The extremists are the ones breaking the law and avoiding any kind of accountability. The extremists are the ones that want one set of laws for them, and another for us.

What would happen if you didn't pay your taxes, and tortured people in your basement? Would the law say, hey, let not play the blame game and just move forward? Or, would your ass be in jail? Think about it folks. RIGHT NOW ITS IN YOUR FACE. TWO SETS OF LAWS. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? THINK!

i've had it said...

This DHS report is shameful. It has basically made enemies of the state out of anyone who doesn't believe in Socialism (Centralized control over everything) because if you believe in Federalism (powerful States) you are a right wing extremist. That is if you are an American you are an extremist.

Also, if you don't believe in abortion, then you are a right wing extremist.

The Federal govt. is setting itself up for fall.

Napolitano should resign now.

Anonymous said...

What's so surprising? This is how Socialism and Communism work - all under the cover of the common good of course. Whenever you have Collectivism this sort of broad profiling is put in place to protect the ruling class and stifle dissent.

Go read the wonderful book :

The Black Book of Communismand show your Marx worshipping professors just how awesome Socialism and Communism and Collectivism are. It's quite a track record of genocide, repression and crime against humanity.

That's why it should disgust every red-blooded freedom loving American whenever some Daily Kos douchebag lefty comes along and starts blaming every problem in society on the free market and starts praising Marx.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting to note that:

DHS Rightwing Extremism Report Created During Bush Administration in 2007So this stuff wasn't implemented by the Obama admin it has only been continued under the Obama admin.

It's also important to note that this is part of a broader campaign by the Federal government to profile and stifle dissent in America. The recent MIAC report from Missouri which labeled Ron Paul aupporters and supporters of other third party candidates as potential terrorists was just one such report which are a product of the fusion centers set up all over the country to promote this idea of "homegrown terrorism".

The massive national security military industrial complex apparatus eye of Sauron is swinging around taking it's focus off those cave dwelling Al Qaedas in the hinterlands of Afghanistan and focusing squarely on the American people.

-Gonzo

Anonymous said...

the divide and conquer looters are out in full force today proven by checking your wallet

Anonymous said...

Leftwing extremism in the U. S. can be broadly divided into those groups, movements and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented(based on hatred of religeous, military or business groups)and those that are mainly anti-individual, rejecting parental authority in favor of complete govt. authority or rejecting individual authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to numerous issues, such as unlimited abortion and amnesty.

Amtex said...

The Bush administration did the research that lead to this report back in 2007. But like usual, never let facts get in the way of the Right Wingnuts.

The report is talking about right wing guys like the dude who killed those cops in Pittsburgh....not you fools with dumb bumper stickers.

Thomas Jefferson said...

Articles of Confederation = Terrorist Pamphlet

LOL

Anonymous said...

"The Bush administration did the research that lead to this report back in 2007."

actually i got this information from the dreaded fox news network. shepard smith reported these facts the day this report was release.

the bush administratino commissioned this report and the left wing report issued on january 26.

bush was a piece of shit and obama is a piece of shit for continuing this.

both parties are evil people...can't we all see that now and move forward.

Anonymous said...

So anyone who does not subscribe to my viewpoint is an extremist.

Anonymous said...

These socialist scum are vile and disgusting. They are now showing themselves for what they are. Americans will now show themselves what they are. You metrosexual socialists pussies may not like it.

will shill for coin said...

Next up, define left wing extremism.

I SAID DEFINE LEFT WING EXTREMISM BITCH!!!

Hating of ideas would be included.

wind solar and sugar smacks said...

Haha! Keith is one of those idiots Tolstoy was talking about.

Anonymous said...

They can't do anything about the real problem so they create a problem they can feel like they're doing something about.

It probably sets-up a cognitive dissonance on their part, but that doesn't stop them from wanting to take action against the wrong thing. Maybe it's some instictive parental motivation or something.

Or maybe it's blaming the messanger because they refuse to fight against something that would fight back, like real criminals would do.

They have some need to justify what they think is good and seek a bad to make themselves feel some sort-of justice and righteousness but they refuse to go after the organized crime that has ruined the country and the world.

Anonymous said...

Opps, another Christian crazy.


> In 2005, prior to writing and preparing her follow-up album, Brooke Fraser took a trip to Africa to immerse herself in Rwanda before visiting her sponsor children in Tanzania, as she is an advocate for child sponsorship. In this trip, she was so moved that she wrote the song "Albertine" about a young child (named Albertine), whom she met while in Rwanda. It was later decided to make this song the album's title track.

knarley said...

First they came for the right wing extremists.....

Then...

Anonymous said...

Keefer,

Is that what the violent extreme socialites in Eurotard land have been teaching you?

Anonymous said...

First they came for the right wing extremists.....

Then...

we all lived happily ever after with no more nut jobs around shooting people.

Anonymous said...

.




FASCISM HAS ARRIVED IN AMERICA!!!




.

San Jose said...

Keith wipe the liberal from your eyes, you can't see reality. Even on you own "left wing Obama is so wonderful" website, your own poll shows 68% of your members here disapprove of Obama. Give it up, Obama is going to destroy what this country was built on.

Anonymous said...

the fear that BO would lead a socialist/communist take over appears to be justified.

Anonymous said...

imagine, rejecting federal government control in favor of state's rights.

how radical. how terrifying (if you are a federal obamaton)

how about if all the states got together and kicked DC out of the union.

Anonymous said...

WSJ -- The Obama administration granted legal immunity to Central Intelligence Agency officials who followed Justice Department guidelines in carrying out harsh interrogations of terror suspects following the 9/11 attacks.
Mr. Obama promised not to prosecute CIA officials
bwahahaha...nice "change". Do you know what they call this omission in my neck of the woods? ACCOMPLICE

Verbosity Dogood said...

You can't help but see the Orwellian march of Obama. Up is down, down is up.

He & his lackeys won't call the captured terrorists at Gitmo terrorists. They are persons whom the US has the authority to detain.

Of course, anyone who dares disagree with Der Fuhrer Obama (or is that Czar?), including military vets who fought for those peksy things like freedom of speech, assembly, etc, are potential terrorists. Niiiiice.

Hitler began to marginalize and to blame the Jews in his rise to power too. What's next? Internment camps for political dissenters?

What a tyrant. I'm shocked that people on the left don't say anything to denounce this. Those who don't show themselves to be lying, hypocritical a-holes who only care about freedom as long as it benefits them, and would happily enslave those who disagree with them. How truly dangerous.

Can you imagine the outcry if Bush's DHS issued such a report on 'left wing extremists?' The silence and lack of outrage by the complicit media is nothing short of shocking.

keith said...

It is very interesting to see how unpopular Obama is here

And that's OK. If I wanted to write for dailykos, I'd do that.

This blog is a free-for-all. One-view blogs bore me - and unfortunately that's 99% of blogs.

Also, this blog isn't permabear or permabull. And it's not 100% negative. Again, lots of those types of blogs.

In the end, I don't care if a person reads this. I write it because I (still) enjoy it, and hope if I can change one person's view, or make one person think, I'm doing OK.

upon the suwannee river said...

Yep, Albertine is pretty much the best album since Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill IMO.

http://top40-charts.com/videos/play.php?vid=WGx-xU6TnU8

Mammoth said...

San Hose said...
"Even on you own "left wing Obama is so wonderful" website, your own poll shows 68% of your members here disapprove of Obama."
------------------------
This does not mean that, if McCain & idiot Palin had instead been elected, 68% would approve of them.

Anonymous said...

Can you imagine the outcry if Bush's DHS issued such a report on 'left wing extremists?' The silence and lack of outrage by the complicit media is nothing short of shocking.Well the truth is that this report was formulated under the Bush DHS and was only leaked under the Obama DHS. So it's not a partisan issue.

Can we stop being sucked into this pathetic left/right debate?

It is freedom vs tyranny that is the issue.

will shill for coin said...

Do you ever learn anything yourself Keith or do you only play the teacher?

borkafatty aka the pig said...

buy it, read it, love it

http://tinyurl.com/bvunrj

Verbosity Dogood said...

Anon at 7:27 said:

"Well the truth is that this report was formulated under the Bush DHS and was only leaked under the Obama DHS. So it's not a partisan issue.

Can we stop being sucked into this pathetic left/right debate?

It is freedom vs tyranny that is the issue."
_________

Bush ordered 'reports.' This report is Janet Napolitano's, and its content belongs to her and Obama. Every time the Obama team gaffes, it is the same old, tired story...it is Bush's fault. Sorry, this is something else that Obama owns and I am sure he hasn't heard the last of it...especially from the vets.

Further, while Bush ordered this report, the Obama administration not only formulated it, but chose to release it in an attempt to paint "Tea Parties" and their participants as radical.

The many thousands of "Tea Parties" across the country were peaceful in nature; something many far left anit-war protests in the past were not.

Much is made of the radical right report. Were is the ACLU defending vets from such profiling?

Is is freedom vs. tyranny.... too bad so many have such a selective application of it.

Anonymous said...

Keith, you have to acknowledge that there are left wing extremist groups too.

keith said...

Will Shill - trust me, I wouldn't take the time and effort to do this unless I found the comments (and my email) interesting. Great links and videos and thoughts posted here, and some damn fine posters.

That said, the comments lately have been too shrill, too mean-spirited, and less educational. I guess that reflects the mood of the country - it's all gone to sh*t, and everyone is just pissed.

Hopefully people elevate their games. More intellectual stuff would be nice.

Anonymous said...

AMtex said:
...not you fools with dumb bumper stickers.

ur so right! Another genius here made the brilliant claim that federalism involves "powerful states", without regard to the states right movement vs the Federalists in early US History!
This is exactly whats wrong with the teabag movement and why these tea baggers have no credibility. It truly boils down to the fact that we have a democrat president and, gasp, he's black! Moreover, he might have even had Muslim influence as a child and (start getting real hysterical at this one) he's not even a 'real' Christian! Now you can panic! These teabaggers have gotten their cue from rush limbaugh and label everything they don't believe in as librul socialist, withuot regard to history, facts, or an inkling of the true philosophy behind such movements. If someone is not a white southern Christian male, somethings gotta be wrong with that person, and we'll call it socialism, or even go a step better and slap the fascist label on it!
It seems like everytime I read these message boards I read the same shrill, fevered rants against obama and I still have yet to hear anyone ever make a valid case that he is a socialist fascist dictator. It really is getting tiring...
-JDF

will shill for coin said...

> Will Shill - trust me, I wouldn't take the time and effort to do this unless I found the comments (and my email) interesting. Great links and videos and thoughts posted here, and some damn fine posters.

That was just a jest. I thought it good sport to put you in an awkward position to see what you'd say. Well done.

> That said, the comments lately have been too shrill, too mean-spirited, and less educational. I guess that reflects the mood of the country - it's all gone to sh*t, and everyone is just pissed.

The problem here is you're more than happy to call out (even) moderate rightys as ignorant fools and haters but you never yank a Bukko around by the chain.

Jasen said...

People read too much into this shit. DHS puts out a report saying "domestic terrorist types, those that would shoot/blow up and kill fellow citizens as acts of civil disobedience are likely to be vets." well no shit Sherlock. And? I'm a vet, I knew some crazy ass vets. they were usually pretty comfortable with guns and bombs.

like that fag Texan Perry, bla bla bla we support the 10th amendment- well good for you dipshit, did you break a sweat writing up that resolution? naming a post office was more difficult then what Perry did. I'm the biggest leftist homo who probably reads this blog and I agree with a resolution that supports the 10th amendment. i like all of them, even the 2nd.

Anonymous said...

The many thousands of "Tea Parties" across the country were peaceful in nature; something many far left anit-war protests in the past were not.

Much is made of the radical right report. Were is the ACLU defending vets from such profiling?

Is is freedom vs. tyranny.... too bad so many have such a selective application of it.
I don't like Obama. I don't like Bush. I'm trying to bring some accuracy and clarity to this and make it clear that both parties and the entire apparatus are to blame instead of simply making it about Bush or Obama. Let's stop being simpletons for God's sake.

Bush has been the most tyrannical president yet. He created the DHS. He passed the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act and the John Warner Defense Authorization Act. These are the tyranny!!

But it's not all about Bush. Democrats blindly passed these bills through Congress and the Senate too. They barely read the bills. They don't even have time to read these gargantuan bills let alone discuss them in detail.

At this moment the DHS is focusing on "right wing extremists" and vets but that is just a starting point because when the government has such pervasive powers to intrude into the privacy of it's people and installs itself as unilateral power it is bound to be used politically and to extend government power.

That was the entire argument from those of us that were paying attention from when these bills were first introduced!

But the idiot Bushies thought we had to go after the Al Qaedas hiding in caves in Afghanistan and the Lefties have completely ignored the fact that Obama is doing nothing to repeal these un-Constitutional laws. Have you even heard him mention them? Once??!!

Anonymous said...

Blogger Mammoth said...

San Hose said...
"Even on you own "left wing Obama is so wonderful" website, your own poll shows 68% of your members here disapprove of Obama."
------------------------
This does not mean that, if McCain & idiot Palin had instead been elected, 68% would approve of them.

April 17, 2009 7:22 PM<<<

I agree. I don't like any of the candidates. They are all the same. Bought and paid for. Powerless men and women who act like they are running something when in reality, they are puppets on strings for the world banking class. Many of us, know this to be true. Just because we don't like obama does not mean we are anti democrat. or pro republican. to me, they are all the same. The fascade of party differences is served up in living color by the news media of this country, to make the sheep think there is a difference. There isn't. Until people wake up and realize this, nothing will change. Tea parties are nice but unless the American people wake up and realize who it is that is their true enemy and what it is they absolutey must do, then nothing will change. ever.

Anonymous said...

There are questions now being asked about Ron Paul. Like where is the money that was given to his campaign? Why is it he quit the race way too soon and left so many angry people hanging out to dry? Is it true that Ron Paul is a 33 degree freemason and if he is, then what ramifications does this have in respect to the presidential race, if any? These questions and more are now being asked. Frankly at this juncture, I am thinking now, that we were set up to fail and we were led down the proverbial primrose path and then abandoned because Ron Paul always was someone who is used to attract the disaffected and offer them hope, when there is none and as a defuser of angry men and women and to this end, he was and still is effective. To wit, if you will notice, he acquires large pork projects for his congressional district. When asked about this, he did the texas two step on the issue but it is strange to this writer how someone can go around calling themselves a austrial economist but at the same time drinking from the same trough as the rest of the pigs. questiona are being asked and they must be answered.

Lady Di said...

"That said, the comments lately have been too shrill, too mean-spirited, and less educational. I guess that reflects the mood of the country - it's all gone to sh*t, and everyone is just pissed."

-----------------------------

I totally agree with you there. I feel the rage. This blog reflects the general mood, which is sour. On the road, in the stores, in Chuck E Cheese, at my kids' team sports. People are angry. Heck, a fight broke out last week at my 9year old's baseball game between 2 moms. My husband who coaches team sports gets his share of it. He was accosted last week by an angry dad over something stupid. The guy is lucky he didn't get his ass kicked.

People are ANGRY (and expressing it in all the wrong places, I might add).

Summer of Rage, 2009, I believe it!

Got a tazer?

Fusion said...

I love these faux "left - right " comparisons by some of the absurd retarded wingers on this page.

I'm leaving out murderers like Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Franco, and other extremists for the fascist right OR stalinist left, as NEITHER have any relavancy to the CURRENT AMERICAN context

However, there is definately a violent, pro militia, Tim Mcveigh style extremism coming from certain sections of the US right in this country at this time, that has no eqaivalancy on the US left. It is undoubtedly a potential danger as of now. I didn't say definate, i said potential, especially with the massive megaphone like Fox and Talk (hate) radio egging it on even further. In fact, that's what happened with the guy in Tennesse a few months ago that went into a Unitarian Univ Church (that's my church) and started shooting and Killing people because he said he "wanted to kill liberals". It's what happened with the guy that shot those police officers last week.

These modern US right wing extremists have NO parallel in the modern US left. They have no equivalent to the hypie, pinko, organic food eating, vegetarian lefties that watch Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman on MSNBC in terms of violence. Again, you may not like the "hypies", but If you think they are as prone to violence as right wing militia types screaming "kill him" at the Palin-McCain Rallies and at Tea Parties, you are blinded by your ideology. In fact, If you think there is an equivalence of violence, you are COMPLETELY RETARDED.

patrat said...

IMO, Democrats and Rebulicans have different philosophies, but it's the same effective result for the average guy. Both get your money one way or another, and both tell you what to do in your personal life. So we go back and forth every 4 years and what really gets accomplished?

What would a third choice actually look like? A blend of the better parts of both? Fiscal conservative but social liberal? Benevolent monarch? :)

Anonymous said...

What would a third choice actually look like? A blend of the better parts of both? Fiscal conservative but social liberal? Benevolent monarch? :)Sad but unfortunately this ignorance is in the majority today. You don't even know what your Founding Father's intended when they established a Consitutional Republic based on the rule of law and individual liberty. That is the alternative which has been whittled away by decades of well meaning fools and corrupt individuals.

Anonymous said...

To wit, if you will notice, he acquires large pork projects for his congressional district. When asked about this, he did the texas two step on the issue but it is strange to this writer how someone can go around calling themselves a austrial economist but at the same time drinking from the same trough as the rest of the pigs. questiona are being asked and they must be answered.I thought he explained his reasoning behind bringing money back to his district and the reason why it's not earmarks that are the problem logically and reasonably.

If you have any proof that he is a mason then I'd like to see it.

As for the money from his campaign - I would like to know where that went too but I'm not jumping to conclusions...

-Gonzo

Duarte said...

I'm an extremist. How about that? And I'm a white guy who dated a black girl in high school.

debt junkie said...

> IMO, Democrats and Rebulicans have different philosophies.


Yes, and it's exactly this. Republicans believe in equality of opportunity and Democrats believe in equality of results.

This isn't my origional thought. I heard it recently and thought, es exactly.

Lost Cause said...

The right wing in America is decendent from Nazis who escaped here after the war. It is perfectly natural, since the Nazis took inspiration from Jim Crow, eugenics and other ideas that found root in America.

Reality said...

Keith,

As usual, the puppet masters give a decent summary on what happened to reel you in (rhetoric "you" not you Keith), then spring their trap on you when it comes to solutions. The trip is at least as old as Karl Marx' Das Kapital: monopolistic state capitalism is bad, and the government is a tool for one class to oppress another, therefore we need a global government to monopolize everything!

What Obama proposes in action are diametricly opposed to what the goals that he supposedly espouses. For example:

1. need for money to flow in the economy, so instead of giving money to individuals and businesses through tax suspension, money is pumped into failed banks that do not lend. The idea that a dollar to a person remains a dollar whereas a dollar to a bank becomes 10 dollars is preposterous. A bank that is in a deep hole simply does not lend; 1 dollar becomes 0 dollar! When business undertakings are heavily taxed and there is little prospect for high profit return on capital, even sound banks do not lend! It's after-tax profitability (i.e. return on capital) that makes the economy go around. How hard is it to understand that concept?

2. Is a legally sanctioned monopoly (government) really the best institution to spot what's the next up and coming industry? The Japanese MITS spent oodles of money developing super computer in the early 90's, and they missed the internet and WWW altogether . . . and biotech too.

3. How is wasting more money on diploma mills going to help either the economy or employment or productivity? We are talking about the same institutions that discovered Internet Entreprenuer MBA programs in 1999 and Real Estate MBA programs in 2005, just as the bubbles bursted. Yes, Harvard Business School Class 2007 had one of the highest per centage of going to Wall Street firms, just as the bubble was about to burst. That's the nature of higher education institutions: instead of market discovery process on the front line, higher education programs are designed to help the offsprings of the elite to advance ahead their peers without exposing to the vagaries of market competition. What goes on in "education" is one step or two removed from reality. Saying that education drives economy is really putting the cart before the horse. The market place discovers new industries. The higher education institutions just figure out ways to turn a profit from putting scions of the elite through a pseudo-market training, and get the holder of the paper certificate to qualify for jobs when the market is mature enough and inefficient enough to substitute paper qualifications for real work experience. It gets worse when the government and the banks get in on the action too: the students end up being slaves to banks before they even get a job, a mortgage without a house!

Anonymous said...

Keith, you have to acknowledge that there are left wing extremist groups too.

-----------------------------

and they are just as violent. and mean. and filled with hate.

Stroebs said...

Another good, provocative post. Funny how some people take this so personally, as if they have lost all perspective!

Whether categorized as left (mao, pol pot) or right (mussolini, pinochet) fascistic and totalitarian leanings pose the greatest threat to our current, at least at the moment.

Go man go!

i've had it said...

The reason there is so much anger is because the Socialists (a/k/a the Democrat Party) are in a great position to kill off the American Republic. Bush did a good job in getting us to the point where these Socialists can now put the final nail in the coffin.

It is every American's duty to stand up to the Socialists now. The Tea Parties are the best vehicle by which to do this, no matter what the Socialists and Keith have to say here on S&A.

I agree with the poster who said this is not so much an issue of conservatives vs. liberals but of freedom loving people vs. tyranny loving people. The latter can be found on both sides of the political spectrum.

Talk radio and the Tea Parties are truly the only avenue now through which Americans can reclaim their republic. The Left is so hell bent on total control of this country they are really just incapable of doing anything to promote freedom. They have a very submissive part to their nature and they will simply fall in line to the Socialist order once it's here. They really have no conception of American history and the Constitution. Their guiding light is Marx, not Madison, Hamilton, Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Mason, Gerry, Hancock, Revere, and all the rest. They look to Socialists Europe for their salvation, not to our forefathers.

And in a similar vein, the Repubs have just become another authoritative political force, opting for centralized power instead of states and individual rights -- the foundation of America.

This is why the Tea Parties are so necessary. They are not only for conservatives, but for all people who have had it with DC, the banksters, and corrupt/lazy Americans. We need to restore America. Bush led us to bigger govt. and Obama is going to lead us to Socialism...there is no doubt about it.

True Americans need to come together and remind the duoploy parties what this country is about and to educate the masses as well.

Join a Tea Party.

You'll be glad you did.

Anonymous said...

Hey Napolitano genius, here's our radical group:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnJoXkUHv-Y


DOPES

Anonymous said...

Leftwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on intolerance, bigotry, hatred of particular religious and hatred of free speech), and those that are mainly anti-capitalist, rejecting self reliance in favor of state or local authority, or submission to government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as promotion of uncontrolled immigration.

Brandine said...

Keith, it's time people got pissed off.

I have been pissed off since 9-11, when we were given lies and damned lies about the attacks.

I respect you greatly for allowing discussion without censorship. That's the main reason many of us frequent your blog.

I can take comments from the right, left, or middle. Some people can't, as they are unable to think outside the party box they have succumbed to. I think it is a sign of intelligence to have an open mind.

Government is way too bloated and has hijacked our lives. Democrats or Republicans, it makes no difference. Both have brought us to where we are today. Both are guilty and both are corrupt.

debt junkie said...

Hey Brandine,

Keith isn't your friend on this issue. He thinks you're a nut.

Brian Miller said...

Republicans believe in equality of opportunity and Democrats believe in equality of results.What a load of hokum, for both parties.

Come spend 10 minutes in a North Philadelphia high school with some kid (who didn't ask to be born) who is one of six kids with a mom who cannot read, in a "school" that cannot teach him, and no prospects for any real employment, and tell him he has "equality of opportunity" with the white middle-class Christian Republican kid in the Main Line suburban school with fancy computers and good teachers and a college fund.

It's such a load of BS.

And I cannot stand Democrats either. But the idea that Republicans "believe in equality of opportunity" is the biggest sack of crap since TARP.