May 25, 2009

A note to cut-off GM and Chrysler dealers: Congrats! You don't have to sell sh*t anymore. Want a tip? Sell Peugeots. And stop being like the NAR.

I rented a Peugeot 307 last year. 67 MPG. Got it up to around 120 on the Autobahn where it just hummed. No shakes. No rattles. Wonderful ride for a fuel-sipper.

I rented a Ford. Piece of sh*t. Can't really say much more than that.

I think Americans are ready to buy good cars, that get ridiculous gas mileage. I think they're most definitely tired of buying pieces of sh*t.

US auto dealers remind me in some ways of the NAR and realtors - everyone hates them, outdated business model, scummy salesmen shoveling sh*t for a commission.

And now they'll either do a radical change, or they'll go away.

And the way forward for the survivors is to sell good high-MPG cars, sold by people on salary or an hourly wage.

No more shoveling sh*t for a commission.


Mike said...

Viva la France.

Got som?e Freedom Fries with that Peugeot?


Anonymous said...

I have a honda CR-V and a toyota tundra pickup, can't ever see myself buying a american product. The only thing I might buy if we get transfered to the desert is a jeep to play with. Used jeep unless I find a new one at the right price from a heloc sucker.

keith said...

Seriously, if the French - the FRENCH - can build good cars, what does that say for America?

67 MPG - isn't that amazing? And a fast zippy car too, and nice interior.

And America is upset about having to go to 35 MPG? Man, I wouldn't look at a car under that.

I cant drive 55! said...

In the USA, you forgot:

Land Rover,
and Buick.

I think there's a BUBBLE in car makers!!! YIKES!

Gas Man said...

The great MPG scam is finally falling apart in America. They had us all brain washed into thinking 30 MPG was excellent and 12 MPG was the norm...What a crock.

Here is some of the best advise I can lay on you for free Brother...Wait at least 3 years before you even think of buying a new vehicle and then cautiously choose from the best values on the market. I bet it will get at least 60 MPG if not more...

mattmc said...

I still the think the 35MPG "fleet average" is bullshit. Just have a sliding scale tax based on the highest MPG car on the road...

Mike Hunt said...


Even Fords are fast in Europe. I rented a 6 speed manual Ford Mondeo, it got 50+ MPG and was a heavy car. Didn't get past 90 MPH, afraid of the law.

US sucks.


will shill for coin said...

I discovered this Bonner guy only recently. Really good.

Anonymous said...

Some Amelicans still think German made cars are somehow built by the 3rd Reich pure Arian chicken wafa engineers.

I have owned a VW jetta and a BMW; they are the crappiest overpriced pieces of junk

German cars make the big 3 shine, contraire to popular belief

Batman said...

The high mileage diesels were prevented in North America my the oil company lobby. You need low sulphur fuel for the injectors in those. They just broke that lobby a few years ago and now we have the right fuel but of course our manufacturers need to catch up.

Moral: crooked backroom political deals to enrich the few, forestall the inevitable, worsen the environment and cripple our manufacturing aren't that good for us. Surprising.

the dude said...

my parents had that exact same model. after 60k km everything fell apart. peugeots are unreliable pices of crap that sell on price alone.

les said...

Americans aren't ready. They're still buying SUVs. They can't squeeze their fat asses into those small foreign cars.

I agree with you Keith. Europe and Japan are filled with small, high mpg, high performance cars. But, who wants to drive one of those next to a raised pickup or SUV.

Pay Lay Ale said...

"67 MPG - isn't that amazing? And a fast zippy car too, and nice interior."

Keith, those are imperial gallons. That Peugeot gets 55 miles per US gallon. Still good, though.

Imperial gallon (UK): 4.54L
Gallon (US): 3.79L

Anonymous said...

Happy driving my 13 year old Ford that is payed for and reliable. Thanks but no thanks

Ross said...


keith said...

67 is the highway mpg - see the link on the headline

remember, we pump liters over here, so it gets real confusing - in the UK everything is miles, but you're pumping liters, and then you have to convert your mpg to kpg and litres to gallons and then you say f*ck it hope this thing goes far on this f*cking insanely expensive gas

Pay Lay Ale said...

Oh, and keith, 0-62mph in 10.9 seconds and 110hp is not zippy. My car does it in half that.

Pay Lay Ale said...

Oh, one more thing Keith, that Peugot 307 that gets 55mpg is a diesel. Due to EPA and state regulations, it's difficult to make a diesel pass emissions.

The Peugeot 307 with a 2.0L GAS engine only gets 37mpg (US). That's corolla, yaris, fit, and civic, territory. I trust Toyota and Honda much more than a French piece of crap.

keith said...

It was a bit sluggish from 0-30 but really had some pop from 60 to 100. Maybe it just needed some momentum, or a stiff breeze. It was fine by me.

Bottom line a car that get 60 mpg being able to handle the autobahn at 120 - 130 is pretty impressive. It had a nice sound - it purred.

And then I had that ford. Hunk. Of. Junk. Couldn't get it to 100. Everything rattled. Plastic interior. Just awful.

Watch for a new wave of high mpg cars coming to America - especially Fiat, Peugeot and Smart. Maybe Citroen. Toyota has some more models over here not in the US. Kinda ugly but kinda cute. And watch for oil to hit $150 a barrel in the next 18 months.

And watch Americans love affair with gas guzzeling monster trucks and muscle cars to go by the wayside.

It hath been foretold.

Anonymous said...

Oh, Peugeots are great, even the old ones. We had one for a long time and it was about 12-14 years old. We just
harder to find parts. Great little runner. Are they here at all anymore?

grandma pkk

casey said...

I will take a chevy anyday over the foreign crap.Go ahead and keep saying how you love america why you buy imported shit at walmart.You tools are hypocrites.Get the hell out of here if you don't like it here.

Afterthought said...

Honda is the best car company hands down.

Bring on the robotic revolution!

Asimo for life!

Anonymous said...

Its the laws over here. We can't get those diesel engines. Ford builds a fine high mileage diesel but you can't get it here.

The Smart car may be smart in Europe but here its pretty dumb because ours only gets 38 mpg (I verified with a Smart car club) because ours has a bigger engine so it doesn't get run over trying to merge on the freeway.

I drove my Dodge pickup 100 miles yesterday with 6 people (3 small framed) in perfect comfort, no rattles, solid luxury ride. 18 mpg, but I could have carried that Puegeot around in the bed.

It has 165k miles and has never failed to start and never needed a repair (just maintenance) NEVER!

And its FAST!, Close to 300hp. I can afford the gas, I feel safe in it, it rocks.

You are wrong about US cars.

GT Charlie

Pay Lay Ale said...

"Bottom line a car that get 60 mpg being able to handle the autobahn at 120 - 130 is pretty impressive. It had a nice sound - it purred."

It doesn't get 60 miles per US gallon, it gets 55. It doesn't "handle" the autobahn at 120-130, its top speed is 119. Whenever any car's top speed is limited by drag, it takes a long time to reach the last 10-20mph or so.

"Watch for a new wave of high mpg cars coming to America - especially Fiat, Peugeot and Smart."

Not with current EPA, CARB, and NHTSB regs.

Also, you get diminishing returns with making cars and engines smaller when using a gas powerplant.

The Honda Fit is quite a small car with a small engine. It's too small for supersized americans. It only gets 35mpg hwy with 1.5L. My car has 3.5L, has more than double the HP, much larger, and gets 30mpg.

Anonymous said...

The workers of those US auto dealerships get fired, thats all. No silver lining here. Lots more unemployment while US auto bashers cheer :(

"US auto dealers remind me in some ways of the NAR and realtors - everyone hates them, outdated business model, scummy salesmen shoveling sh*t for a commission."

Are you suggesting that Toyota saleman are any less "car saleman" like? That's really reaching Keith.

To me Toyota dealerships are shoveling shit that I would not buy. I want US cars. There is no car I want more than a new Challenger. Everything on the Toyota lot is boring. They are to cars what work uniforms are to clothing.

GT Charlie

Pay Lay Ale said...

"I will take a chevy anyday over the foreign crap.Go ahead and keep saying how you love america why you buy imported shit at walmart.You tools are hypocrites.Get the hell out of here if you don't like it here."

GM has had great cars and terrible cars. Any car with the GM 3800 or 350 V8 has been reliable and got great MPG for their size. Any car based on the J platform was a complete piece of shit (vega, citation, cavalier, sunfire, cimarron). The A-platform cars were also turds (grand am, alero, malibu, cutless, skylark, achieva). The cimarron and cadillac V8-6-4 motor destroyed cadillac for a generation.

It's not patriotic to buy SHIT. What is patriotic is to buy the best product that your budget, needs, and wants allow within a free market system.

keith said...

GT - my mistake - it's not just the US dealerships in my experience that are scummy commission-hungry would-be-realtors. It's all of 'em.

I've been gone for some time though - are there any auto dealerships in the US that have gone with the Best Buy model - no commission?

If not, they will. Soon.

Same goes for realtors.

The days of commissions are over.

keith said...

Check out the S&A poll voting - 89% say their next car WON'T be a GM/Ford/Chrysler.


Anonymous said...


This country is So castrated!

What a bunch of pussies!

This Dumbshit boy King is going to destroy us all!

How in the Hell are you going to blame All this on Bush Now!

Obama Motors...Great



Anonymous said...


The only thing they did right on a moving vehicle was back-up lights on tanks!

Anonymous said...


Did you hear about the French armament sale?

Rifles, never fired, Only dropped once!


Anonymous said...

"I've been gone for some time though - are there any auto dealerships in the US that have gone with the Best Buy model - no commission?"

Keith Saturn has a great no hagle, no pressure experience. I don't know how they pay though. The funny thing about Saturn is the fine little cars they built in Tennesee are the stuff of legend.

300k mile stories abound for those models and they got great mileage. There's a friend's in my drive right now with 265k miles on it and very few repairs. Now it seems all the Saturns are larger less efficient models that are basically Opels. Weird huh, that the European models would be bigger and less efficient?

The big story is that US builders just could not build even great little cars and make a profit, so now Saturns are Opels. Our Gov. talks about MPG but they really don't care. Just a subsidy/tarrif to allow Saturn to compete with countries who have national healthcare is all that we would have needed to see US built small cars grow and prosper. Our system taxes our own cars $2-$4k per car, or should I say gifts foriegn makers that amount. What sense does that make?

I am not surprised by your poll. I am in the minority on this issue, have been for as long as I can remember. Come to think of it... I've been in the minority for as long as US manufacturing and jobs have been shipped off to Japan/Korea/China. Coincedence?

GT Charlie

Anonymous said...

Definition of Peugeot????

Not easy nor cheap to repair!

Anonymous said...

Does anyone not remember AMC motors of the 70's and 80's

Or the Chrysler K cars?

What the heck is Government motors gonna be like?

Anonymous said...

As a mechanic, the toughest by far for getting affordable parts 'in a timely fashion' was Peugeot!

Jag was incredibly expensive and long turn around time...not to mention anything equipped with Lucas electric 'The inventors on total darkness'!


never_forget_y2k said...

Most American car drivers are too fat to fit in a car like that, and even if they managed to squeeze themselves and their fat children in, they would likely wear out the vehicle very quickly as it is probably not designed to transport over 1200 lbs of human flesh. It needs to be about twice that size.. but then you'd probably be back down to 30mpg at best..

Anonymous said...

Peugeot contemplates its return to the American market

Peugeot contemplates its return to the American marketStrong North American small auto sales could be now enough to tempt France`s car-makers back to America. Rising fuel prices, a trend to the smaller engines plus greater environmental awareness might really be enough for Peugeot to get back to the country it abandoned on the late 1980s.

“If the market continues to go smaller, then we could have something very interesting for US customers,” said Christian Peugeot, the fifth-generation scion of 117-year-old auto-maker.

“We are studying many things about the US and we always have,” he said.

“We are constantly reviewing it. Will they (the customers) continue to buy smaller cars or is it a panicked surge that will not last? This is the key for us,” Peugeot, the firm’s Communication and Strategy Manager, affirmed.

“We have done China and we would go to India and South America first before we look to the U.S.,” he said.

“We left the U.S. because the market out-grew us and we didn’t feel we should follow it,” he affirmed.

“If it’s a market with big cars and big engines and big consumption, then that’s not our way to do business. If it’s not our way to do business, we know better than to get involved in it.

“If they buy smaller cars, then we may have something to offer the U.S. in quality and performance and style that they can’t buy today,” he said.

“Ecological ideas will come to the U.S. one day and the big engines and big consumption cannot last,” he continued.

“Maybe one day the diesel market in the US would be worth us to go there.

“We are the masters with diesel technology and we can do what we can to help make diesel stronger and more accepted there.”

* * FORD WINS USA!!! * * said...

Hey Keith, RE: "Check out the S&A poll voting - 89% say their next car WON'T be a GM/Ford/Chrysler."



What you missed is that:








Anonymous said...

America culture is about muscle car.

Camaro SS: $30995 / $31490 Challenger R/T: $30945 / $38270 Mustang GT: $28845 / $34330

Camaro Fights Mustang and Challenger - Muscle Car Comparison

Power for the LS models comes from a 3.6L V6 making 300-hp with a maximum torque of 273 lb-ft.

A 6-speed manual transmission is standard with a Hydra-Matic 6L50 6-speed automatic with TAPshift control available as an option.

All LS and LT models return an estimated 27 MPG.

The SS model is powered by a 6.2L V8 making 422-hp 408 lb-ft of torque when mated to a 6-speed manual.

The Hydra-Matic 6L80 6-speed automatic model produces 400-hp while returning 23 MPG.

The 2010 Chevrolet Camaro is available in 10 exterior colors and comes with four-wheel disc brake system as standard on all models (four-piston Brembo calipers on SS models), StabiliTrak traction control is also standard, Bluetooth, USB, remote-start, OnStar and XM are available as option.

Buyers can also opt for the RS appearance package available on LT and SS models.

It includes HID headlamps with integrated halo rings, spoiler, specific taillamps and 20-inch wheels.

Anonymous said...

Rumor has it Ford is working on a new engine 32-valve 5.0L V8 with 400+ hp code name Coyote.

More HP better Gas mileage.

But if you can not wait until 2011 then look into 2010 Ford Mustang GT500

540 HP 2010 Ford Mustang GT500

Reports have indicated for several months that the new engine will end up in the 2011 Mustang GT and Ford F-150, essentially replacing the present 5.4L V-8 mill, although Ford has yet to confirm.

Anonymous said...

Good luck with that high MPG little shitbox if you live in Colorado and it's January and it's just snowed 3 feet.

Not everyone lives in temperate climates and in cities Qweefie.

euonymous said...

Keith said:

"I think Americans are ready to buy good cars"

Keith, you forgot already?
We have this economy-jobs-thingy going on over here. Americans ain't buying anything, shit or otherwise.

"Same goes for realtors.
The days of commissions are over."

Sorry to say that 6% is hanging in there, Keith. In fact, this is nothing but a hunch, but I believe the 6%-ers are doing better than the discount brokers.

Reality said...

A few problems:

1. 1 Imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallon; so 25mpg in the US = 30mpg in UK, assuming idential test methodology;

2. The test methodologies are not the same. The European testing cycle routinely produce higher fuel mileage than the US testing cycle, for the same car.

3. No current four-wheeled production car can return 67mpg while doing 120mph! I doubt even any motorcycle can do that. Most of the cars that I have owned can do 120mph, but the gas mileage at that speed is close to 10mpg, if that! I have never run a full tank at 120mph, but the instant fuel consumption rate usually peg at 10mpg or thereabouts when the vehicle speed exceed 100mph. Those cars usually have/had an EPA highway rating of 25-35mpg, meaning 25/35mpg if put to the testing cycle of 30~65mph with some accelearation and short stops. I usually get a couple mpg better than EPA highway ratings if run the cars at 65mph with cruise control. It's hard to be driving fast and saving fuel at the same time.

4. Slow 0-30 accelearation is kiss of death in the US market. We have intersections instead of Round-abouts. Hybrids with regenerative braking and electrically assisted take-off may have a unique advantage in the US market due to this infrastructural reality.

Alan Static said...

Will GM be reduced to bankruptcy chopped meat? In the infamous words of one Obama "Yes we can."

Anonymous said...

Why is it that the "coolest" American vehicles I have ever seen aren't sold in the USA?

Ford (with help from Cosworth) puts out some bad ass cars in Europe. In the 90's it was the Cosworth Escort. In the 2000's it was the Cosworth Focus.

In Latin America, Chevy puts out some of the coolest pint-sized pick-ups and SUVs.

Until they start selling those models here, I'm sticking with air cooled 911s.

patrat said...

I don't understand why deisel isn't used more here and why it is so cheap in Europe compared to gasoline. I would think that deisel would require less refining and therefore be cheaper, but I also read somewhere that to make it less emitting, it requires some expensive process. Still, in Europe, deisel is cheaper. I wonder if we will ever use it widely here?

Also, I have rented many cars in Europe and have liked most of them. Many were made by GM and Ford.
Mostly manual transmissions.

I especially liked a Renault that had a "card" instead of a key for the ignition, and if you had the card in your pocket and approached the car,the doors would unlock from about 10 feet away.

One thing, big cars don't work in a lot of towns and cities over there because the streets are so old an narrow. Smart cars work well, say in a place like Holland where it is so populated and you can get 2 smart cars in the place of one regular car.

patrat said...

But my real preference is the Deux Chevaux. And the life that went with it.

investorinpa said...

Q: Why are the streets in Paris lined with trees?

A: Because the germans prefer to march in the shade

Anonymous said...

Obamy gimme Viagra!

WizardofIB said...

Farewell shitty cars!!

Mike Hunt said...


Is that 120 / 130 MPH or KPH?

Pretty impressive that a 110 HP car will hit 130 MPH, and quite unusual.


Mike Hunt said...

The French surrender monkeys need cars that can U-turn and accelerate away quickly.

Don't hate them for being French.


keith said...

Mike - that's MPH

Tellin' ya, the little thing had pep. Car that gets 50 / 60 MPG and can hit 130 mph, with good design and nice interior. For under $20k. Those French are doing something good. Maybe one day they'll find their way to the US again.

Mike H. said...


The spec said a top speed of 125 MPH so maybe the speedometer reads 10 - 15 MPH fast on the Autobahn. It has 136 HP so that explains why the top speed is possible. Trust it was a 6 speed manual.

$20K USD is only $14K Euros... are you sure it's really that cheap, with all the taxes and such out there? If so, that really is a fantastic bargain.

A car like that would cost $60 K USD here in Bangkok, just because it's imported. But even for a Toyota or Honda (locally made) with that spec would be around $35K USD.


gutless and lazy said...

Seriously, if the French - the FRENCH - can build good cars, what does that say for America?I had hoped Keith was above the typical American habbit of taking cheap shots at the French.

After all, the French are about 2000 years ahead of the USA on creating a more civilized society.

gutless and lazy said...

And watch Americans love affair with gas guzzeling monster trucks and muscle cars to go by the wayside. So I guess what Keith is saying is that it's not that the UAW that caused the lion share of the problems for GM and Ford...

It's the failed product management teams. The failed designers. The failed marketing teams. And the failed sales teams.

All of these types of folks who failed to diversify the product offerings and build profitable lines of businesses away from the SUV and truck (gas guzzler) markets.

Shame on management.

But hey, I know, lets do the easy thing. LET'S SOLELY BLAME UNIONS!!

gutless and lazy said...

Anon May 25, 2009 7:21 PMIs that suppose to be funny or something? That's so old, so lame, it's pathetic.

You would think a sorry a$$ like you might remember that on Memorial Day weekend that it was the French gov't and French soldiers that fought and died in the Revolutionary war for the USA.

And other folks like say, the Germans, that fought as soldiers for hire to keep Americans British subjects.

NAH! That would require even the smallest bit of knowledge and sophistication on your part.

My bad. You're just a clueless idiot.

Pay Lay Ale said...

Keith, your inability to have any reading comprehension whatsoever is stunning.

You keep citing miles per imperial gallon to a US audience that uses US gallons.

You claim that this car is less than $20,000, but the last website you just cited shows its price to be £16,000. Do you not know how to use exchange rates? £16,000 = $25,460.

gutless and lazy said...

Anon May 25, 2009 7:20 PMSomeone on another thread posted about how 75% of the posters here just love to revel in their own ignorance.

Thanks for proving that poster right once again.

Congrats, I'd like to nominate you "Top Moron" of this thread.

patrat said...

I think the US car companies wanted to get around the cafe standards that were put in place a few years back, so they invented the SUV.

Technically a truck, so it didn't have to obey those cafe rules, and yet practically, a huge urban station wagon with many uses.

The truck part obviously appealed to the disenfranchised, job threatened white males with their bruised lives and hopes (memories of the past ...)

the practial part appealed to the timid urban mothers, scared to death that their little ones were at risk unless they had the biggest, baddest... (fear tactics),

and, as it evolved, the added trim and jacked up part covered the macho latino insecure extrasensitive gang thing (immaturity beyond compare ...).

Pretty smart marketing.

They will have to do the biggest green propaganda push ever, to sell the new breed. It won't be easy - all these audiences are not the same.